October 22nd, 2018
- At an unknown time, the johnisdead website was updated and brought back online. There was no title on the index page, the BG image was titled: "maj.gif" (http://internetdetectives.tumblr.com/post/179304756653/majgif-johnisdead-update-102218) and featured a corrupted image of Tyler staring into a camera with eyes wide and mouth open. The BG audio was titled: "recruit.mp3" (http://internetdetectives.tumblr.com/post/179304438993/johnisdeadcom-update-102218). In the source code was a message repeated 55 times: "howdoesitwork" (http://internetdetectives.tumblr.com/post/179304484663/johnisdeadcom-index-source-page-update-102218). The page now has a new icon (http://internetdetectives.tumblr.com/post/179304165223/newicon).
October 23rd, 2018
- At 1:58 PM Johnisdead.com was found to have updated once more. The title of the page was changed to “construction”, featuring an image that we had seen before, “awaken.jpg” (http://internetdetectives.tumblr.com/post/167436108208/awakenjpg-111217-jid-update), an image showing a distorted Tyler with many other images layered over it. The audio remained unchanged since the previous update, “recruit.mp3″.
October 24th, 2018
- At 9:53 AM, Jos discovered that the previous front page for Johisdead could be reached at “https://johnisdead.com/home.html”.
- At 9:56 AM, Jos was redirected to a brand new site called “Astralobservatory.net” (https://astralobservatory.net/). This new site appeared to be based around conspiracy theories. Two blog posts were discovered. This first post was from July 28th and was sorted under “Thoughts”. It was titled “The Astral Observatory” (https://astralobservatory.net/?p=9):
Welcome to the Astral Observatory. This is a website dedicated to sharing news, opinions, and thoughts from an underground collective that believe in what some may call paranormal or supernatural. We believe in that modern society has pulled a warm blanket over our eyes, trying to lull us into a false reality in which the masses, now imperceptible to the greater machinations of the universe, are more malleable for cooperation. We have been exposed to some of the truths that shattered that illusion, and now we seek more. If you are interested in joining us on this journey, bookmark this webpage for further updates, and head on over to our forums for new community of people like us, and we believe, yourself.
- The second post was from October 22nd and was sorted under “News” and titled “Malicious Attack; Forums Offline“ (https://astralobservatory.net/?p=14):
Dearest believers, I have some news you may find unfortunate. On Sunday morning, around 12am, this site was taken offline. I do not know how or why, but during that time our bandwidth was temporarily re-purposed for another website, ‘johnisdead.com’. While I’m not sure why this has happened, I can only conclude it was some form of malicious hack. Please stay patient while I work to get my previous posts on this website back up, and work to restore the forums to their former glory. For now the forums are locked. We will get through this.
- Users discovered a link for the forums at the top of the page, though they are currently down.
- Youtube/Greth Vlogs
- Doug’s Blog
- Youtube/Vincent Adams
- Johnisdead Home Directory
- Astral Observatory
October 25, 2018
- At 3:28 PM, Jos discovered the image used on the redirect pages, “ha.png” (http://internetdetectives.tumblr.com/post/179764328068/hapng-johnisdead-update-102418), a dark image of John and the Elegy Statue. This further hints that Tenebris is indeed back. The redirect page was also discovered to have the title “lost?” and the message “find your way” hidden in the source code.
October 31st, 2018
- At 4:02 PM, a new blog post was discovered on Astral Observatory. The title of this one was “Good news and bad news.“ (https://astralobservatory.net/?p=19) and was uncategorized: Hello everyone, I have both good news and bad news to report today, Oct. 31st. The good news is that soon, our forums will be up and running once again! The bad news is, most of the our previous posts have become corrupted. I was unable to salvage anything but the protected forum. Some users may need to find that they will need to re-register themselves, even. We will rebuild.
- At 4:16 PM, users were able to access the Astral Observatory forums. Five new characters were discoverd on these forums: “Nocta”, the administrator. “Samuel_Charleston”, an old man. “Yuukichan”, a young girl interested in anime and ghosts. “NotAHoax_M12″, an enthusiastic conspiracy theorist interested in aliens and the government. And finally, “moonman31″, the local troll. All of the posts made are currently still viewable either on the forums themselves, or on our archive on the Johnisdead wiki. Users also discovered a locked board titled “The Truth”, which only users with the “Believers” rank could enter. One of the rules of the forums is to not attempt to break into “The Truth”, meaning there is probably something dark hidden within. A topic discussing Johnisdead.com was found on the forums, with the characters either believing the site to be a conspiracy or the work of a hacker. Nocta tells users to let it go.
- At 5:16 PM, Nocta sent Dense a personal message on the Astral Observatory forums. Dense had posted the solution to the cipher found in the description of “J J S K K N V G H“ which referenced Patrem and vessels. Nocta had deleted this post and replaced it with “.”. In the PM Dense receieved, Nocta gave Dense the following warning: “I would stop while you are ahead.” This hints that Nocta knows something about Patrem, and doesn’t want us posting about him.
- At 5:48 PM, Wolfcat discovered a new blog post on the front page of Astral Observatory. This one was also uncategorized and was titled “New users”: As the forums come back online, and while our previous users find my previous post and continue to rejoin, there is something I would like to address: new users. We have always been a lightly secluded gathering of folk, but we have always embraced new users and brought them into the fold; there is, however, a small influx of users joining that are related to ‘johnisdead’. I suppose I knew this would happen, and there’s only one way to address. Welcome them, teach them, and embrace them… with one eye open. These users will be placed into the ‘Internet Detectives’ usergroup as they are identified (that name is what they already call themselves in other parts of the internet). Keep lips sealed on certain subjects. Stay wary. Change their minds.
- At 5:57 PM, an update was discovered on Johnisdead.com. The title of the page changed to “The timer (won’t) reset”, and the page now displayed the image “infinitecycle.gif” (http://internetdetectives.tumblr.com/post/179766280343/infinitecyclegif-johnisdead-update-103118), a distorted moon jittering around with an occasional smiling face flashing on screen. A slow, disturbing song titled “brokencycles.mp3″ (http://internetdetectives.tumblr.com/post/179766412493/johnisdeadcom-update-103118) played in the background. In the source code, this audio was briefly labeled “brokencycles.ogg”, though it was changed shortly after. These audio files were the same.
- At 10:24 PM, a new video titled “experiments” (http://internetdetectives.tumblr.com/post/179766837143/october-31st-2018-experiments-video-i-recorded) was uploaded to Silentdork. This video was recorded before “A guest” and features Tyler experimenting with the strange Detour sign he discovered outside his home. He touches the sign and explains how it works, teleporting somewhere different each time. At one point we see him teleport in front of Greth, presumably in the same exact moment we see him in the background of “Greth Vlogs 12: General Update”. Tyler teleports back to his house before he can speak to Greth and the video ends. There are no tags and the description reads the following: Video I recorded about a week before the last one that came out all messed up in my phone and I could not get it to work. But I checked my phone today and suddenly it works now. Must be that Samhain magic I guess. I have not messed with the sign much more since that point. I have been waiting for that guy I hung out with last time to come back again so maybe I could try and see if he would like to help me try a few Ideas I have had with it. Also johnisdead.com seems to have come back since then, but Archive guy never emailed me or anything like he said he would. Not sure what the deal is with that but I assume he is probably just really busy. The cult main site is not back however and idk what the deal is with that.
November 1st, 2018
- At 9:16 AM, Wolfcat asks the members of the Astral Observatory if they’ve had any connections with Johnisdead.com. The three regular members of the site reply that Johnisdead.com is completely new to them.
- At 12:03 PM, Jos asks to learn the Truths that the Astral Observatory members hold. Yuukichan says that we will learn them if we stick around the forums.
- At 12:40 PM, Nocta locks the Johnisdead.com thread because he doesn’t like where it’s headed for some reason.
November 2, 2018
- At 7:22 PM, Jos discovered that Tyler was attempting to test out the YouTube livestream feature. The video doesn’t contain much other than Tyler configuring his settings.
- At 7:42 PM, Wolfcat discoverd that Tyler had begun his actual livestream. Tyler discusses what’s been going on recently in his life. He says he still hasn’t been harassed by any cults in a long while, though he has found some strange items outside his house. He shows is a red mask with horns he found along with a photo of Hank and Diana Hubbard which was sent to him through the mail. The writing on the back of the photo reads “Diana, 1990″. He also shows the audience a gas mask and a bag he found, likely the same one seen in the Lostmemory423 videos. Tyler repeatedly hears strange noises in his house. He eventually goes to investigate, leaving the room. While he is gone, his lights begin to flicker as someone wearing a large coat reaches into frame and takes the gas mask and the bag. The tosses Tyler’s missing bullet necklace onto his chair before leaving. Tyler reenters the room and freaks out when he discovers that someone was in his room. He ends the livestream after seeing someone off-screen, running after them with his knife. The mysterious man who took the mask spoke while taking the mask, though it is difficult to make out exactly what is being said. This is our best guess so far: “Perhaps (Unknown) part ways… Thank you… And just one more… Thank you… Alright… Thank you for finding that for me. Here… I grabbed this. Felt to add something to it. Watch over my brother for me. (Unknown) I’ll see you this evening (Unknown)”
- Judging from the fact that this man speaks in a British accent, wants the gas mask, and mentions a “brother”, it’s very likely that it is actually SKM.
November 3rd, 2018
- At 4:34 PM, Yuukichan claims that she’s been surrounded by ghosts and paranormal activity ever since she was a child.
- At 10:33 PM, NotAHoax_M12 claims that “visitors”, most likely aliens, abducted his uncle, mother, and father. He says he ran away before they could take him too. Yuukichan says that everyone on the Astral Observatory have been victims of similar things, so they are all working together to discover “The Truth”. Nocta enters the thread and says that they are all walking the same path under some sort of guidance: "Everyone here has sought the same guidance and walks the same path. We are all trying to break the veil because we had questions about ourselves and our paths that needed to be answered."
November 5th, 2018
- At 12:41 PM, the Internet Detectives decide to create a thread (https://astralobservatory.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=26) on the Astral Observatory forums about the Moon Children. This was done in an attempt to see if any of the new characters had any information on the subject, or if any of them could become interested. An image of the newspaper clipping discussing the discovery of Hank’s body at the Fishery was also included for further proof, along with a Lostmemory423 video.
- At 1:57 PM, Nocta posted a new topic in The Truth board, though users are still unable to access it.
- At 2:05 PM, Hoax said the topic was interesting, with Yuuki later saying that the video was spooky.
- At 6:23 PM, Yuuki elaborated on her paranormal encounters. She claimed that her mother started writing on the walls, providing a picture titled “mrerya.png” (http://internetdetectives.tumblr.com/post/179815261988/mreryapng-astral-observatory-update-11518).
November 6th, 2018
- At 6:47 PM, Nocta posted one of his favorite songs in an Astral Observatory forum thread. This song, “Old Lace” (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHu_0Bn9Gr8), can be heard in the background of the Greth Vlogs video “never sleeping”, though the significance of this is unknown.
November 11th, 2018
- At 12:02 AM, Wolfcat discovered an update on Johnisdead.com. The page now featured a distorted image of Greth smiling at the camera titled ”pqbxh.gif” (http://internetdetectives.tumblr.com/post/180024555883/pqbxhgif-johnisdeadcom-update-111118), along with a slowed down music track titled “fillicaelo.mp3″ (http://internetdetectives.tumblr.com/post/180024605493/johnisdeadcom-update-111118). The title of the page was now “tlopa”. Filiicaelo roughly translates to “Child of the sky”, while pqbxh and tlopa have yet to be solved.
- At 1:44 AM, Nocta posted another one of his favorite songs on the Astral Observatory forums (https://astralobservatory.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=19&start=10). This link actually took users to a new YouTube account owned by Nocta himself. This video featured the song “Sky Children” by Kaleidoscope (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oN2ViFxFpWw). This was the same song that was currently playing on Johnisdead.com - filiicaelo.mp3. While most of this video simply featured aesthetic imagery, about two minutes in, some dark footage begins playing. We first see two people riding in a car, one of them wearing a hoodie. The footage then cuts to two or more people surrounding a lighter in the middle of the night, as if some ritual were taking place. The footage goes dark before we see The Watcher staring directly at the camera. Some more footage occurs after this, but the video is entirely too dark to make out what is happening.
- At 1:47 AM, players discovered that if one clicked on Nocta’s YouTube Channel, the name associated with the account reads “Kevin Hendricks” (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbxSzbhMGfvR6L2sJjyJclw). This shocking revelation implies that not only could Nocta be Kevin, Tyler’s former friend and Regiminis, but also related to Ryukaki whose real name was “Kayd Hendricks”.
- At 1:56 AM, the video’s tags “He was never safe”. Who exactly this is referring to is unknown.
- At 7:25 PM, users brightened the video and discovered some movement near the end followed by the appearance of a strange object, though it is still incredibly difficult to discern what it is (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGmwvlMnnEk).
- At 9:57 PM, moonman send Wolfcat a PM:
- moonman: “I have something you may want”
- Wolfcat: “What might that be?”
- moonman: “Don’t ask questions https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKgEao7uNxo“
- This led users to another new channel ran by moonman (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxYvLfTYj130aQIbg5JqQrw). The video in question was titled “mask of truth”, and featured a slightly brighter version of a portion of Nocta’s video.
- At 10:20 PM, users discovered that, when brightened, the video reveals that Tyler was actually present. What this means exactly is unknown.
November 12th, 2018
- At 9:34 AM, Wolfcat sent Moonman the following PM to Moonman: “Are you all aware of what he is?”
- At 11:58 AM, Moonman responded: “That’s a question. I told you not to ask questions, but fine. How about this? Ask me three questions that I can answer with a simple yes or no. But i promise nothing“
- At 12:42 PM, Wolfcat sent Moonman a reply: "Is Nocta the same Kevin who was at times known as Regiminis? Was the footage in Nocta’s video recorded after 2015? Does Nocta often wear a shiny alien mask?“
- At 3:00 PM, Moonman answered the three questions: "In a way, yes. Yes. No idea.” So, Nocta is Kevin “in a way”, meaning he might possibly be from an alternate timeline. The footage of Tyler was also taken after 2015, meaning Tyler might possibly be in danger.
- At 5:03 PM, Jos sent Samuel_Charleston a PM asking if he was alright, since he is one of the most mysterious users on the board and hasn’t posted a single time.
- At 6:00 PM, a new character joined the Astral Observatory forums - A returning member named Kaiden_Zoromichi. They seem to enjoy anime and roleplaying.
- At 10:15 PM, Moonman send Wolfcat another PM: “I may be interested in chatting further, but it needs to be away from here, and no where that eyes know of- not your discord or skype groups you boys have advertised those too frequently.“ He seems to be willing to answer our questions if we can set up a safer place to speak with him.
November 13th, 2018
- At 6:00 PM, Wolfcat sends Moonman13 a PM, asking if a private Discord server would be a suitable location for a discussion.
- At 7:15 PM, Moonman replies, saying it would be fine. Wolfcat then sent Moonman the link to the private server.
- At 7:34 PM, Moonman entered the discord server.
The entire chat with Moonman13 can be read here. Below is a summary of what was discussed:
- Moonman doesn’t know how connect Nocta to Kevin other than that are the same person “in a way”.
- Moonman has been on the Astral Observatory forums since the beginning which is July “for him”.
- He is physically unable to speak about certain things, implying that some malevolent force is keeping him from giving too much information.
- He says this force keeping him censored is not related to Nocta.
- He is unable to speak about where he lives and how he knows of Greth.
- Moonman claims he doesn’t know anything about The Watcher.
- He is unable to tell us anything about what’s inside The Truth.
- Moonman doesn’t elaborate about Samuel other than that he’s an old guy on the forums who hasn’t been around lately.
- Moonman knows plenty about Ben, the Internet Detectives, and Tyler.
- He doesn’t know what was happening in Nocta’s video with Tyler.
- To his knowledge, the rest of the forum members outside of him and Nocta do not know any of this.
- He is not strictly on our side, only coming to chat with us to have some “control”, which is partially related to how he cannot speak about certain things.
- He does not know anything about the red mask that Tyler found.
November 14th, 2018
- At 3:55 PM, player ARGDov notcied a PM from Nocta that he previously missed. It read as follows: "What game is it you play, ARGDov? I would like to know. I've been told you haven't been with the Detectives for some time."
- At 4:10 PM, player ARGdov responded, claiming that he is indeed no longer a member of the Internet Detectives but decided to join the Astral Observatory to discover the truth for himself.
- At 5:30 PM, Moonman31 notified players that he was currently stoned.
November 17th, 2018
- At 5:59 PM, ARGDov noticed that Nocta had sent him a reply the previous day, asking him “How far does your curiosity go?”
- At 6:44 PM, ARGDov responded to Nocta stating that he wanted to know the Truth, and that he no longer wished to associate with the Internet Detectives.
November 19th, 2018
- At 9:18 PM, Moonman31 became active in the Discord server. The entire chat can be read here. Below is a brief summary:
- It is hard for Moonman to describe how he cannot speak about certain subjects, calling it a “spooky-ooky thing”
- When asked if he’s ever met other Astral Observatory members in person, he says he has.
November 20th, 2018
- At 9:46 AM, Moonman once again became active in the Discord server. The full chat can be read here. Below is a summary:
- Moonman doesn’t know anything about Kayd’s old friend Thomas, but he says Nocta might, further connecting “Kevin Hendricks” (Nocta) and “Kayd Hendricks”.
- Moonman knows of Hunter Jarvis because Jeremy spoke to him over Skype a few years prior.
- Moonman was an Internet Detective when he spoke to Jeremy, meaning Moonma is a former player.
- When asked if he is Tyler, Moonman says no.
- Moonman has read “Moon Magic”, the same book Greth was seen reading in “never sleeping”.
- Moonman often smokes weed.
- Moonman claims that the “Truth Seekers” group that Samuel Charleston and Nocta are a part of on the Astral Observatory forums is likely just a moderator group and nothing special.
- There is now speculation that Moonman may somehow be Greth, as the two share many similarities.
- At 7:07 PM, Nocta replies to ARGdov, claiming he is merely asking if ARGdov would like to be friends.
- At 7:10 PM, ARGdov replied to Nocta, saying he would be interested.
November 24th, 2018
- At 12:09 PM, Zero noticed that Astral Observatory was offline.
- At 2:29 PM, Deadhead discovered that the site was now online, now with a new post from Nocta: “Today we had a small DDOS attack on our servers. This caused our account to be temporarily suspended. It would be easy to say it was the “Internet Detectives”, but I can’t be sure that is the case. It would be inappropriate of us to try and assume anything in this instance, so we will move forward, as we have always planned” This post had random letters that were bolded. Once the letters were put together they spelled out “he is trapped”
- At 3:18 PM, Jos found a new page on JiD - https://www.johnisdead.com/heistrapped.html. This page featured a mirrored image of a pained Greth named “trapped.gif” (http://internetdetectives.tumblr.com/post/180552940203/trappedgif-johnisdeadcom-update-112418) with the title “trapped”, with a midi version of the Astral Observatory theme from Majora’s Mask playing named “astral.mp3″.
- At 3:55 PM, Wolfcat discovered that by using view-source, the coding for astral.mp3 contained a cipher that translated to: “what do you think you can do to save them”
- At 5:36 PM, Nocta joined the Discord server containing Moonman. The entire chat can be read here. Below is a summary.
- Nocta says we cannot change anything.
- Nocta asks us what we believe is right and questions our goal.
- Nocta says that we’ve only been seeing one side of the story.
November 26th, 2018
- At 1:44 PM, Moonman and Nocta began chatting in the Discord server. The full chat can be read here. Below is a summary:
- Moonman says that no one in the chat is enemies with one another.
- Nocta scoffs at this and calls him an idiot before leaving the server.
- Moonman says the situation with Nocta isn’t how we think it is.
- Moonman says that his own life might be in danger at this point.
- Moonman says the more we discover, the more he is able to reveal.
- Moonman knows nothing about the “heistrapped” page on Johnisdead.
- Moonman believes a spy is among the Internet Detectives.
- Moonman reveals that he is Greth, but he does not know us and does not remember the events of Greth Vlogs, and while the Greth on Johnisdead.com looks like him, it isn’t him.
- Moonman asks about Patrem, not knowing much of him. He does manage to relate him to Kelbris, however.
- Moonman says some dark things are happening on Astral Observatory, and that he’s frustrated that it might be too late to stop it.
- Moonman says that he hasn’t been able to access The Truth since they changed the password, which used to be “pqbxhtlopa”, two ciphers seen on Johnisdead.com.
- Moonman says that after he lost access to The Truth, a post was deleted from it.
- Moonman says he indeed took part in the original run of YSHDT.net, having posted the New Wave Bossa Nova.
- Moonman says he believes events between our point of view and his are the same up to a certain point, claiming that it all deals with “Kevin, Tyler, and Tenebris”.
- Moonman begins deleting a lot of his posts, writing “save please tyler” and “EVERYTHING IS TYLER AND NOTHING IS TYLE”.
- When asked who is causing him to act strangely, Moonman posted an emoji of an alien, hinting that it is The Watcher.
- Users posted the Bow and Arrow in an attempt to ward off The Watcher. It seems to have worked and Moonman returns to normal.
- When asked about the man with the alien mask, Moonman claims he doesn’t know who we’re talking about, claiming that he doesn’t know what hurts him like that.
- Users posted Epona’s Song, causing Moonman to ask what someone is doing and a cipher that translates to “god,im”, then claiming that someone is knocking on his door.
- Users post the Stone Mask, but a message appears from Moonman’s account reading “too late”.
- At 4:41 PM, Moonman returned and had another short chat, found here. A summary is below:
- Moonman says someone came to his house and he felt he needed to follow them.
- Moonman says their identity was of no importance, but he still has the weird urge to travel somewhere.
January 11th, 2019
- At an unknown time, Escape p.2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbYmqT_HqHM&feature=youtu.be) was uploaded to Greth Vlogs. This video begins with a man and a woman, presumably Greth and some yet unknown character, driving through the woods. They briefly converse. Though it is difficult to make out exactly what is being said, it seems as though the woman asks Greth if he is recording. After Greth says he is, the woman proceeds to give him directions. The video then shows Greth walking through the woods. At the end of the video, a loud noise plays as a pixelated image of Mac Tonight appears, a character associated with Moonman. The video's description reads "You weren't supposed to have this". This is likely meant to take place after a previous Greth Vlogs video, "Escape".
January 21st, 2019
- At 12:20 AM, Yuukichan creates a thread asking if anyone has visited any haunted houses. (https://astralobservatory.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&p=435&sid=553b79829b73145068005ac3dfb0db90#p434)
January 26th, 2019
- At 1:09 AM, Yuukichan replies to her thread, claiming that she has recently visited a haunted house, though it wasn't just any old house (https://astralobservatory.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&p=435&sid=553b79829b73145068005ac3dfb0db90#p459). Considering her own paranormal experiences as a child, it is likely she was revisiting her old home. Yuuki acts very distraught over the experience, saying this has opened her eyes to "The Truth" in ways she had never hoped to. She claims to have photos of the house, but they are currently not with her.
January 27th, 2019
- At 11:42 PM, Yuuki posts another reply, expressing her frustrations over the corrupted picture files: "ugh these files are still corrupted. I'm sorry. I'm really trying. I wish I could will things into existence". Players quickly noticed that the "i" in "existence" was a link to https://astralobservatory.net/forum/johnisdead.com/hh.html. Though this page did not exist on Astral Observatory, it pushed players towards a new page on johnisdead.com - (https://johnisdead.com/hh.html). This page featured a gif titled "hh.gif", likely standing for haunted house, which displayed various photos of the inside of an old home rapidly flashing. The title of the page read "case file". The page also had an audio file titled "mater.mp3" which was a melodic piano theme with the sound of a reversed voice at the end saying "Stop". "Mater" is latin for "Mother", further implying that this haunted house belonged to Yuuki, as she described her mother suffering from the effects of paranormal activity.
January 30th, 2019
- At 12:52 PM, Kaiden_Zoromichi made a post (https://astralobservatory.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=66&start=10#p502) implying he has experience with time travel. He continues to say he will explain his experiences in a YouTube series at some point. Whether or not he is simply roleplaying is unknown.
January 31st, 2019
- At 11:20 PM, a new comment from Greth Vlogs was discovered on Escape Pt.2 containing some binary. After ciphered, this message solved to the following: ""upon several worlds did these men stumble, each world only slight less and more than the last. inviting themselves into these folds allowed their conscious too see her""
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